Response to Josh:

Hi, Josh and everyone else!

Finally I've time enough to get through a bunch of questions Josh asked me about a week ago, in my post on libertarian ethics. He made several claims and had a few relevant questions I'd like to address. So, here's an overview and a brief elaboration on each topic.


On Moral
Josh claimed that 'moral' was misplaced as far as philosophical terms are concerned, on the grounds that "sense deep down" does not form a logically coherent argument. I am inclined to agree, but then again, what is moral if not a deeply rooted sense or conviction of what is virtuous/desireable etc? Put into context, what's stopping me from robbing my neighbour's house is not only the cost and consequence I might have to pay if the police catches me; there's something else, there's a conviction within me that stealing is inherantly wrong, and that I want to live my life according to different standards. Perhaps that's not the exact definition of 'moral' from a philosofical perspective, but that's my understanding. Feel free to correct me.

Distinction between 'force' and 'violence' 
In Josh's comment, he includes into the concept of 'force' other types of influence over people, such as persuasive, economic or intellectual. My answer is simple: such concepts are catagorically differt influences. The three of them involve a use of the agent's mind, letting him ponder advantages or disadvantages with, ultimatly leaving the choice down to rational considerations; that is, the way everything in humankind works, when we buy, consume or take up a work. When violence (or threat of violence) is introduced, that natural process in human brain is put on hold. Under the assumption that a human being prefer any scenario where he/she lives to any scenario where he/she dies, there's no barganing, there's no reasoning involved when violence is introduced. That's the essential difference between the two catagories of "force".

Now, I know whole bunch of socialist that will object that the very same conditions apply for people choosing to take up a job (that is, some kind of economical force) because if they don't, they starve and ultimatly also die. This, altough being a close alegory, carries a vital difference; that force/limit/condition is set by nature, inherent in our existence and something we cannot overlook or remove. Violence, on the other hand, is introduced by human action and is by no means a necessity for human survival.

If you'd want to walk the other concepts, persuasive and intellectual 'force', you'll end up in a confusing debate where everything eventually turns into a persuasive force (your parents, religion, legal system, cultural traditions etc), thus refraining from personal choice or freedom to form your own life. I fundamentally refrain from such a claim, but that's beside the point. Simply, the only way Josh can be accurate in his reasoning regarding this point is to refrain from all personal choice.


On the topic of Best Interest
As part of the above mentioned argument, Josh involved the concept of 'best interest'. How are such interests to be determined, especially if not by the agent himself, as Josh's reasoning requires him to? Is there any kind of divine, omniscient creature/body that could inform us about such interests? Not really. Unless you make what economists call "interpersonal utility comparisons", you cannot determine the "best interest" of other people. I'd argue that such comparisons are impossible, thus reaching the point where the best agent for your own interest always is your personal being.


Property Rights
Somehow it seems that at the bottom of whatever libertarian approach I take on a particular issue, I find property rights. I believe that's because property rights are the most essential - and arguably the only - feature we come into this world with, involved in every transaction between people. Unless you want to argue that the purpose of humankind as a whole is to be decided by some kind of divine authority who controls everything, you'd have to admit property right over our own self; the blood flowing in the body I call mine, is rightfully mine, the bodyparts connected to it aswell. Hence, the mind I use for every simple or hard task is mine to control, use, advance and enter agreement with others with.

Josh's argument here is that property right "have forced someone else not to have access to it". That's a fallacy for several reasons. First, as seen above, what my blood, mind or body is does not limit the property rights of other people's minds, bodies or blood. Secondly, when inventors invent object x, have they done so at the expense of other people who didn't invent x? If I carve a bow out of a tree, make some arrows and this invention renders me a better hunter (thus allowing me to survive to a larger extent), was this made at the expense of all those who didn't invent such an instrument? No, not at all. Hence we conclude that because my mind is my property, whatever my mind creates is also my property, free to trade with whomever I want for whatever end I find worthwhile. From that, property rights for most things can be established. That moves us to the next issue; enforcing them:


Property Rights, Enforcement and Thrid party 

"And how are private property laws to be enforced without the use or threat of force? Also, how do they resolve the conflict of two people's rights (where the two cannot come to agreement) without the initiation of violence, if not through a third party who has been designated as arbitrator?"

To resolve the conflict of property rights and costs involved in whatever transaction, you wouldn't have to go further than the simplest insurance disagreement on, say a car crash, or even regular disagreement between corporations. Because legal actions are costly in terms of money, time and effort, both parties prefer solutions that can be reached without such measures. Especially in contacts between insurance companies; they are very well aware that such conflicts will arise in the future, and court costs for every single transactions simply does not make sense. What's the bottom line here? Parties involved have strong incentives to solve issues of property rights without the involvement of courts. Thus, there's no need for external force to resolve most conflicts.

I'm currantly reading an interesting piece on just this issue, The Not So Wild Wild West, about property rights among whites and Indians in the Great Plains during the 19th century (You can find it at the Uni Library). Before reading it, I had the view that some kind of third party external force was required to maintain order. The author argues that this was not the case in the first 50 years of contact between Indians on the Great Plains and white settlers; property rights evolved on its own, they were respected by both sides and within groups, and trade flourished where Indians for example traded pieces of land for exotic good carried by the Whites. On the contrary, wars and violent conflicts between whites and Indians didn't occur until basically after the American Civil War, when the US had a standing army performing the role of a "third party". Why was this? Essentially because violence is always a negative zero-sum game, not in the interest of either party, while trade creates benefits for both parties. When the US standing army was present, however, the cost of warfare was moved from individual settles to the US government, thus reducing the transaction cost for such measure on behalf of the individual settler, making violence a viable option.

Also, property rights were upheld by mutual respects and voluntary cooperation between and within associations/tribes.

My bottom line with this is that external third party might very well be the cause of violence rather then a protector from it.


Libertarian, Minarchist and Anarcho-Capitalist Approach

This a bit of a grey zone, and I suppose Josh has a point that I perhaps mixed the concepts in my initial post. Originally, the libertarian approach involves a small state for certain ends (such as courts, police or Military; a minarchist argues the minimal state concievable (normally State involves some element of Nightwatch State, but generally not all of them) while Anarcho-Capitalist approach refrains from any kind of state. I've also heard people arguing that Libertarianism would be some kind of category including minarchist and anarcism approaches. Tricky.

I have to admit that my understanding and reasoning between these concepts varies. They all have valid points and I'm not entirly sure which one I prefer. In this sense, I'd agree with Josh, when he argues that my initial post is more inclined towards anarcho-capitalism than towards libertarianism.


The Idea of a Social Contract

Josh argues that since I'm part of a society, I implicitly agreed to the rules set up by such society. If I'm not mistaking, that idea comes originally from Rousseau, though I'd argue to refute it entirely on the follow grounds:
For contracts to be of any value, there has to be internal and external elements; that is, someone/-thing is included in the contract, and if not applying to some conditions, they are excluded. This normally involves a choice on the part of the individual. A contract (may it be letting, selling goods, taking up employment etc) may be broken, and I can choose to walk away from such a contract. That's the core of it. For such a contract to exist within a society, there must be the option of opting out of it, that is leave and not live under the conditions such a contract puts forward. Does that exist?
Simply, no. The moment I leave the domains of UK State, I enter some other State. While within those states there are no options for me to leave the conditions, refrain from state benefit and not paying taxes etc. There simply is not a choice, thus you cannot argue the case of a social contract. 

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I probably forgot some elements of these questions, but I'm fairly certain this is long enough for most people to opt out of reading it, anyways. Further questions will hence have to be dealt with in other posts.